An Insiders Look at Financing & Distribution with Producer Cole Payne

This episode is full of the business info you need if you want to raise money for films and make money from your films. Jessica, Michael and Dan sit down with Cole Payne at Shock City Studios to learn about his journey from dropping out of college in MO, to learning the ropes of producing in LA and then his journey back home to start to produce a different kind of film. Cole get super transparent sharing actual numbers and the truth about financing and making money from your films.

Hailing from Russellville, MO, Cole Payne has been involved with financing and producing over 20 feature films with more on the way. 3 films he produced premiered at Sundance Film Festival.  His company is called Traverse Media and in 2020 Payne launched genre label Traverse Terror to develop, produce and sell clever low budget horror films, currently released are the films YOU DIE, MONSTROUS, THE RETREAT and DAWN OF THE BEAST with more coming soon.

A few links to things mentioned in this episode:

Traverse Media's Website

Cole's IMDB

Shock City Studios 

Hollywood Reporter & Variety 

Film in MO 

Cannes Film Fest

Berlinale 

AFM

Film Hub - self-distribution platform 

Indie film hustle podcast/Alex Ferrari

Filmtreprenuer book

This podcast is sponsored by the MO Film Office (https://mofilm.org) and Shock City Studios (www.shockcitystudios.com) and is brought to you by Speak Up Productions (www.speakupproductions.com) and the In Motion team (www.inmotionconference.com)

Music by Courtney Orlando Peebles of So Hot Productions (https://www.linkedin.com/in/courtney-jr-peebles-05a2a19/)

Transcript

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But I would say if you have 50 grand and you're planning on making a $200,000 movie, it should be a horror movie and you should figure out how to do it for 50, because if you're going to do some drama for 200 grand, it better be the best thing that's ever been made as far as a 200 grand drama. And you have to get into Sundance or Berlin or Cannes. And then after that is like South by Southwest or Toronto. And if you don't get in those festivals, you're more than likely not making your money back. I've made movies for millions of dollars where I've never seen a dime. After what the initial MGM Money guarantee, the distributor pays up front. Oh, don't you dare stop believing. If you can see it, then you know you can achieve it. Let that wave take you higher than an eagle. No time to slow down. Put your dreams in motion. For the big. This podcast is supported by the Missouri Film Office. Go to Mo film Dot to learn about all the different ways they support filmmakers here in Missouri. This is also sponsored by our very new and amazing sponsor, Shock City Studios, where we're actually recording this. And we recorded all of our podcast here. So far, Shock City is really a one stop shop for all things post-production sound. So if you're a filmmaker and you need help with anything post-production sound, go to Shock City Studios dot com to learn more and more. All right. I want to welcome everybody back to the In Motion Storytellers podcast. Your host, Dan Parris for my co-host Michael Francis and Jessica Ambuehl is actually here today. Actually Here in person. Yes. In the flesh. In the flesh. Last time we were talking about how you're out there being successful, but then you told us you were sick. So were you sick or we're successful? Are you successfully sick? Oh, we're going to go for that. Successfully sick? Are you so successful? It's sick? Well, I'll just say I was sick and then I was successful after that. Oh, yeah. Although I auditioned while I was sick and booked, so maybe I was successful while I was sick. I think so, yeah. Did you successfully get people sick while you're being successful? No. No, because I wasn't on set. I auditioned at home, submitted a self tape, and therefore it was safe. You know, that would be very bad if you, one of the premiere COVID officers is out on sets getting people sick. Well, that would be that would be ironically awful. Yes. So can you tell us about any of the success that we got to keep it secret? I got to keep it secret, Sorry. And NDA. And until it later down the road, you'll find out. So today we have a special guest who's driven from mid-Missouri, which we're very thankful for. In the. Rain. In the rain? Yes, he's committed. So we have with us today Cole Payne. So after attending Missouri State University with a business major in entertainment management, Cole moved to Los Angeles from Russellville, Missouri, which we learned is near Jeff City in August of 2003, at the age of 21, Payne started as an unpaid intern at Spring Management. Within weeks of landing in L.A. and in under a year was promoted to talent manager. This is also where Cole took to producing, as well as cementing relationships throughout the entertainment industry. He's aspire to go out on his own as a producer, with production on his first feature film beginning in early 2006. He produced the film Downloading Nancy, which was directed by Johan Renck, who also is known for HBO's Chernobyl, and went on to become an official selection to compete for the grand jury prize at 28 Sundance Film Festival, which we'll obviously want to talk about Sundance, because I'm a big Sundance guy here, and also received a nomination for the 2010 Spirit Awards. After that, Payne went on to partner with production companies in Berlin, Germany based finance and production company Instinctive Film, and eventually expanded the company's presence into North America. While with Instinctive, Payne was instrumental in the financing of numerous films, several which were international co-productions. And in 2013, he launched Traverse Media, the first production for Diverse media was the romantic comedy Caveman, and several more followed, including Anti Birth, another Sundance selection. In 2016 and in 2020, Payne launched genre labeled Traverse Terror to develop, produce and sell clever low budget horror films currently released are the films you die, You die. How would you say you die? When you say it to people, how do you say you die? You die just like you're just like very. Pretty monotone. Very. Personally. Got it Now, I mean, I'm always. I'm like, overacting over here. Monstrous. The retreat and Dawn of the Beast with more coming soon. Since the start of his career, Payne has been involved with financing and producing over 20 feature films, with more on the way. At what point in that bio like, Why did I give him a really long bio to read? Yeah, it's really weird because, you know. I cut some out of that. Yeah, I say you have to write your own bio, but you write it in the third person. So it's the first time I ever heard somebody else read my bio that I wrote in the third person about myself back to me. So it was a. Good. Surreal experience. It's weird having you like right here, and I'm just talking about you as if I know you really well. And we just met like 20 or 30 minutes ago. So yeah, I'm really shy. So, you know, I'm probably, you know, blushing right now. And the other thing, I'm a. Mere bio question. Yeah. Did it make him think of like, why did I write such a long bio? Like, why are you reading all. That to. It? You know, you don't need to ask him any questions now. Yeah. It was nice seeing you guys. Back to back the gods guns. Some of those bios, like, already heard everything. Back to God's country for me in Russellville. I will say we are succeeding really great people, really great session, great space. Yeah, it is a great space. My first time here, it's pretty impressive. Your next movies come down here. Yeah. If we if we get the Missouri Film incentive, you know, we can do some post-production here. So. Yeah, I was talking to the owner about that. He's very interested in it. So let's. Let's do that in 2024. Word on the street is that the last vote passed out. I don't know the specifics to tell everybody what that actually means, but is moving forward. I know that. So that's a good thing. I think everybody needs to watch that show or is like I'm just the bill on Capitol Hill. That whole process of. Yes, but it's not that simple. You know, especially here in Missouri, there's a lot a lot of processes. But, yes, our bill in the Senate has passed through the Senate. So that means that there's now in the House, I believe they're still waiting to sign it to a committee. But the House bill from our representatives bill sponsor passed out of committee earlier this week and is now moving on to the next step. So things are moving on both sides of the bill. So and you were saying this is about as far as the bill has made it since the tax credit got cut, right? Yeah, since we got cut in 2013, it's the furthest it's ever been. So, so exciting. Something before we kind of jump in to your story, You when we asked you some social media things, you're like, just tell everybody about film in Missouri. So are you involved in the film in Missouri? Tax credit. Like what? Yeah, I consulted on drafting the bill, so I put a lot of stuff together before it got handed off to Senator Hoskins and Representative Gregory, who are our sponsors over there at the Capitol, among many other great sponsors as well. But they were the the the point people and then there was a lot of other ones are like, this is good. This would be good for Missouri. We want to do this bill, too. So and a couple other film bills were out there. They got combined together with our language in the Senate. We also got combined with the music bill, so to speak, which is a tax credit incentive for rehearsals for like big concerts that will come here to Missouri. And if they spend a certain amount of money similar to like a film would come here and spend money, they can get a tax credit for doing that. So it's across the board entertainment friendly bill. So well, I'm behalf of other local filmmakers. Storytellers. Thank you for all that work that you did. Yeah, it really does mean a lot. I've been getting asked a lot by my family and friends lately, like so. So how do you get paid from this? I'm like, well, you know, it's, you know, I just yeah, hopefully we can start bringing some productions to Missouri and maybe get in on some of the businesses around the business. You know, like, again, a wonderful studio like this are, you know, maybe partnering up and see if we can get some picture post and sound post and things like that going. So so for everybody listening, it is you should be thanking Cole for putting in the hard work to help bring us our potential film tax credit incentive, whichever one it needs to be called, because different places call it different things and different things, different people all, you know, So whatever it is, it's going to bring us the ability to do more things in this fine state. We want it. And we may be thanking Cole when it's. All over again. You got him. You got me. Blessing. Well, it's just I've been in several different states and countries and utilized tax incentives like this, so it just seemed like I was, you know, the right person to consult. I'm sure there's people out there that are better at it than me, but you probably would have to pay them. And I don't know if we can afford that. So. So you get me. All right. You're good choice. Good choice. And I met Donnell. Small fry. Tell me for you. Small fry. Come on. Is that it? Yeah. You know, I'm worried about his health. Oh, one, you know, health, cholesterol. That if you. Want to sit with me, I'll give you an extra large. I appreciate that. Jessica put cheese on. She ate and she. All right. All right, So we ready? Really get into this. So, Mr. Cole, welcome to the podcast, The In Motion Storyteller podcast, where we are here to educate, give valuable information to people in this Midwest region, the flyover country of how you can get into the business. That's what we're here for. You have been doing that and we're going to just kind of hop in and get going. Sounds good. So you were born and raised in Missouri. You are a son of the Midwest. Tell us where you're from and what it was like growing up there with the dreams of being a filmmaker. Yeah, well, I didn't really have the dreams necessarily when I was young because as I mentioned, you know, from Russellville. So that's like an 800 person town right in the middle of Missouri. And I always loved movies and things like that. I just didn't think it was like a realistic career path. But I what I started doing when I was a teenager is having like field parties and stocks. My grandpa is a farmer and he's got a bunch of land and things like that. So I probably had about 100 people at my first party. And then you cut to when I was like 19. There's like 2000 people and stages and lights and generators and deejays and people taking money at the gate and stuff like that, which I did get arrested for a week after the party because they had to find something to arrest me for. It was like an antiquated liquor law that said you cannot provide entertainment for people consuming alcohol after 10 p.m. without a license. So, you know, if you're like sitting in your living room and you got the TV on, you had a couple of friends over and they're drinking beer, you could technically be charged with this law. So your couch was just a cornfield? Yeah, exactly. So, you know, when I got to when I was down at Missouri State in Springfield, it got to the point where I needed to choose a major. And I was just like, oh, they have entertainment management here. And I like the third parties. So that kind of goes hand in hand, I guess, because Branson is right there, you know, And so and then some friends from Jefferson City had moved to Los Angeles and I road trip down with them stayed for like a week. And I was just like, all right, I need to get out to L.A. And I met a woman in a bar and she said, What do you do? And I said, just moved here from Missouri, majored in the same amount as that. She had a talent management company. She had bought the rights to a book that we attached Jennifer Lynch, to adapt and direct. So I kind of went around and pitched meetings and development meetings and things like that. That was my first experience on the producing front and that's how I got into it. So you roll into L.A. after producing parties in the field? Well, they live in a cornfield. What kind of field was it? Not that year, but at some point in my lifetime, I do recall there being corn there. So you were producing these concerts out in the middle of nowhere. Middle of nowhere, Missouri. You go to school, you still doing the parties. That leads you to getting into entertainment management. You graduate. Well, I don't want to I don't tell a falsehood here. I, I didn't actually graduate. I was three years in the school down in Springfield, and my plan was to reenroll once I got back to Los Angeles. And I don't know if I connected the dots on that bit of the story, but that woman that I met, she had a talent management company. I did talk about that. Yeah. And she had like a law degree from Oxford. And I was, you know, when I was interning for free for that like eight months that I think I worked about 60 hours a week for free for her. I was like, I want I got to go back to school and finish my degree. And she's just like, y you're already in your field. So I actually never went back to school. So I'm, I guess technically a dropout. You know, I, you know, it was after the semester was over, I was intending to, like, go back and re enroll. It just never really happened. So Missouri State, if you want to give me an honorary degree, I will take it. Sounds like you may be delivering a next commencement. So then you get to L.A. either pretty for a period of time. You meet a woman in a bar. What are you doing? Next thing you know, you working for her? She didn't convince you to drop out of school? Basically, I blame her. I blame her. Yeah, I was like, the first. She's like, show up on Monday, and she's like, Do you read Hollywood Reporter in Variety? And I was like, What are those things? So I was pretty green when I started. And so then once you get in there, you've kind of started to move pretty quickly in learning and being able to move up. So tell us about what that first job was like because you know now how you got the first job. So it was a. Thrown into the fire situation. And I and I have been in a lot of those and maybe I bring it on myself, I don't know. But it's a good and bad thing too, because it's like, so this is a small company. This is one woman and it was just like me. And then like after I was there for a while, every once in a while we'd have another intern or something like that. That woman is now, I think she is still married to this guy who is a writer producer. He had that show on Rome on HBO, going at the same time. So he had moved in. So I kind of started working with him as well. And it was everything from like you know, helping run the company and do stuff to like, go to Starbucks and get me a coffee, you know, kind of thing. And again, most of this was for free. And then when I finally got paid, my deal was 1250 dollars a month plus commission. And for some reason or another, I never got any commissions. There was reasons for that. So it was good in the sense that I got to be in on these meetings and the ground level and stuff like that, and just really had immersed my life in this. You know, I was like working at a watch store and the nights and weekends, you know, to pay the bills. So I was pretty busy the whole time I was there. But yeah, it was, it was. But again, it was a good experience, you know, it's like I'm representing talent, I'm reading scripts, helping develop scripts, I'm going to pitch meetings, things like that. So it's like if I was at a big agency or a studio, I'd probably be after two years. So we pushed an email card around or something like that. But I at least got to do things at a higher level quicker. You know, I think the other path is a really great path too, because you meet so much, so many more people, you know that you're working with that go on to these other companies and things like that and sort of the connections you get are invaluable. And you know, I got the connections to and there's still people that I connected with then that I'm still in contact with today. And like people that were assistants at the same time that are now, you know, at executive levels or big agents or big managers or things like that. So it was really just, yeah, as I said, kind of a thrown in the fire and have to figure it out. So, yeah, I didn't know what script first day is like cover these scripts. I'm like, What does that mean? You know? And for the people who still don't know what that means, explain it real quickly. What is covering a script? So it's sort of a specialized version of giving notes on a script. And those notes are basically saying, okay, should we consider this script or should we just pass on it? What are your general assessment of the script and like what it needs help? How are the characters, how's the story, things like that. So you're really breaking down just like a report on the script, just so somebody can look at it quickly. And so because, you know, for me, I'm a slow reader. It takes me a couple of hours before your script, I was listening to one on the way up here, actually. So people don't want to read scripts. And when people do read scripts, you basically get one shot, you know? So it's just like it's time as morning, kind of thing. So it's like something for people to peruse and be like, All right, I'll read this script. It's very common, an entry level job, right? Like if you're starting out in an agency, you're starting out working for a producer, being like an assistant for somebody doing script coverage is a great way that they can offload the bulk of that work and have someone else curate it so that they only have to read of the 20 scripts. They have to read one or two versus all 20 because they just don't have time. But they're like, Hey, this young person, if they like it, then I'll give it a chance, right? Yeah. You nailed it. And that's someone who I would say for people, even here in the Midwest or whatever, it's like, that's a job you can get remotely from here. You know, it's like people are, you know, hit me up if you want to do coverage on scripts, let me know I'm up for it. So, like, that's something you can do for companies and producers or places like that even from here. So and I think that's a really important thing in our industry is just that like we have such a massive amount of content now, a massive amount of films that are being made more and more every year, short film scripts. And so the power a lot of times now is that the curators write like a film festival is a curator. They decide if you make it through that gateway. And so a lot of the people who are going to look for your films get distributed. There's going to be curators along the way that they're going to trust. It's going to be really hard to go direct to a distributor or direct somewhere without some form of curation happening. And I just think that's interesting because of the mass amount of content, the importance of curation, which script coverage is one of those is just really risen. And yeah, absolutely. I mean, I mean, that's the thing it's, it's relationships like was, you know, something that was mentioned earlier. It's just I mean, in any business, you know, we know that that's how things go, but it's just like, yeah, when I submit a film to Sundance or wherever, it's like, I don't just let the first person, the curator, know that it's coming in like I head up the programmers directly. And that doesn't mean they're going to give me in because they're not. They've turned down plenty of that. They've turned down more films that I've submitted than they've accepted. So put it that way. But at least I know that they're going to watch it, you know, I mean program or to where sometimes, you know, if you don't have that or you don't have that person, you may get shut down just by the entry level, curate. That person's taste. They may just not like whatever. Yeah. Typically I think these festivals, especially like Sundance, it's not just a one person job anymore, you know, they're given at least two people. So it's not just one person, you know, and you're out kind of thing and they're they're trying to be a lot better about that like used to, you know, used to if you're an alumni and, you know, the programmers you could submit for free, they don't do that for at least they tell me they don't know for sure. Maybe they do anyway. They need that entry fee. Maybe I'm not a fancy enough producer to still get the three submissions, but. I think that speaks a lot to what a lot of people forget is networking and and just being a good person. So when you're making those connections, you're remembered in a good way. Oh, absolutely. And I'm terrible at networking. You know, it's just like my boss is my friend, that first boss just to push me to these networking events. And I'm glad that I go and like, not that I'm antisocial. I just like to sit here and be like, Oh, this is what I do. What do you do? It's just like an awkward thing for me to to do, you know? But I would go and, you know, things like that. I remember I was at one and I said, My name is Cole Payne, And they're like, Oh, is that your stage name? Well, no, I don't. God, that sounds sound, but I mean, yeah, I mean, that's, you know, something to that I would say it's like if there's somebody that, you know, in the business and you hear that they're like, went to a new job or they got a promotion or whatever to do an email, shoot them a text, say congratulations, you know, those things, those things are important. It's nice, even if you haven't conversed with that person in a year or two, you know, it's like it's I definitely recommend doing that and, you know, staying in contact with people. My first class in film school, one of my first classes was entertainment business, and our teacher was a she was a former Hollywood agent and gone on to be a professor, you know, And I think she had smoked a lot. So she had kind of a voice, you know, like and she's like, Ah, I want to talk about the most important thing in entertainment business, schmoozing, you know? And it was really great because what she ended up saying was just the same thing I found in that book, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie is just this idea, like schmoozing is only being genuinely interested in other people. It's really a great a great thing. It has this really kind of dirty term to it and even networking a lot of people don't like. But it's really like the interest in other people, you know, being a good person. Be curious. And that's kind of just that's that's going to lead to good networking. Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, that gets lost in Los Angeles. You know, it's like, I don't want to speak to New York as much because I haven't really spent a lot of time there personally on the ground. But definitely in L.A., it's tough because it's expensive and it's hard like everyone is out there trying to make it. And most of them in some form of the entertainment industry. So they have an agenda, you know, and it's and it's easy to get caught up in your agenda and forget to be genuinely interested in other people. And I think that was part of my misery roots that I'm glad that I clung on to, because I think my belief is in Los Angeles that you turn into the stereotype of Los Angeles or you become more proud of the place that you're from, like I would even say. MAZARA You know, out there just because and I would say, like when I was in Springfield going to school, people like, where are you from? I'm like, Jefferson City, Missouri, because it's just easier. And explain the 800 person town near Jefferson City, Missouri. But like when I'm in Los Angeles, they don't know where Jefferson City, Missouri is. So it's like I would say Russellville, Missouri, you know, and like and I'm proud that I'm from there. And and I got the work ethic and the morality background that I did from coming in here because it's like I think it rings true and it's like, you know, something else that I weirdly this is a little bit off topic that I was commented on is like text communication emails mainly. It's like, why don't just do two or three words, You know, I'm like, I kind of address it like a letter almost, you know, you know, And they're like, Oh, you write really good emails, you know, And like, that's something that has stood out that several people have mentioned to me because it's like because I think it's like, sure. Like if you go back and forth a couple of times, you don't have to write the whole proper thing. But I think when you start an email out or that initial response should be a little bit more like formal and show that people that you care enough, you know, even though you may not get in return. And honestly, in the entertainment business, I mean, there's a new thing now or it's like if somebody is not interested in what you're pitching, they just won't respond. It doesn't mean they won't respond to you in the future. But it's like it's just like a known thing now. It's like, Oh no, I passed, remember? I didn't respond. It's like, you know, so it's fading away. But I think it's still important, for what it's worth. Whenever on the acting side, whenever I book a gig and do it, I find out the production company who did the actual shoot that I was with. I'll handwrite them a thank you and I'll mail it to them. And I just got a rebooking because they remember me from the shoot to do one later this month. Did you give me a handwritten note? I know I don't. Because, you know, you did work with me. Was that was it was a cell. Phone that after your pregnancy. In your production, I told her I know she learned that from me. No, she didn't. But now it was it was a small part and she had to drive hours to me. So is it even you sent her? Thank you. Handwritten. Thank you. That's right. Now that's what I expect. I'm just kidding. Oh, I didn't know. But I think it speaks to which these two gentlemen here now, I use this word often, but excellence is going above and beyond to make people feel seen and heard. And if you do it generally, it just makes a difference. Yeah, it takes time. But we have gotten away from those extra special things to make people feel special and welcome. But it does go far. If nothing else, even if you don't get a rebooking or you don't get a response, you know that you did your part and that that's enough for me. But hopefully it translates to at least that's what I'm known for. I may not book it, you may not hire me, but, you know, I did what I could as best as I could for you. Oh, yeah. And I mean, you hear it like a lot of people are saying it now. You know, the no assholes on set thing. I mean, that's real. You know, it's like when you're working on a movie and especially like a TV show with somebody, it's like you basically live together for months of your life, Like you don't want to be around these people. And that's the thing too. It's like it's not just the above the line people, you know, the not just the producers, directors, writers and the actors. It's like to the lowest level production assistant, you know, it's just like I just did a movie where the writer told the nicest kid ever this production assistant to get out of a chair that was behind the monitor. It wasn't. It wasn't even like and if nobody was sitting there, there wasn't people waiting to sit there. There wasn't like people that should have been sitting there standing. And it's like I had to pull the guys. I'm like, What are you doing? This kid's working his ass off for us and you're being rude to him. So it's I think it's important on set, you know, be polite, be courteous, be cool to everybody on the phone to you're talking to somebody, assistants. I mean, again, I used to be at the talent management company. Some of these casting directors just call me and be rude. I will never hire them for a movie because I remember how they were to me when I was an assistant. And it's like, you never know. Or some of these assistants are going to be. That's a really key thing for people to really get and understand. And I know I paid great attention to it is the assistants. The assistants are your friend and nobody's your friend. And any of this stuff is the assistants, is the people that are your friends. For one thing. They're your gatekeepers. Anyway, just if you want to be just bottom line of I just all care about what I want. Like that's the person that's going to stop you from being able to do anything you want to do. Because whoever you're trying to get to, they control their schedule. They control if you get if your call goes through, your e-mail goes through, they control. If you even get a meeting, you know, all those things. But also looking at future, if you take an interest in people and you get to know people just in general, which I think you just to do anyway, they move up, you know, and pretty soon they're the ones that's running the company. They're the ones that's the age and they're the ones the manager, They're the ones that the, you know, person that's booking and you coming up together, if you look at it that way. They're usually the gatekeepers. They're the curators for their boss, right? Yes. Yes. They're more than just the assistant. They're that curator. Mm hmm. So, you know, treating a assistant right goes a long way of being nice. And especially those people who are buttholes to the assistant and then the you know, I didn't wanna say butthole. Then they did. Say it again. Yeah, One more time. Butthole. But then, you know, that's three. You mean to the assistant. But then when the person you're calling gets on now you all nice and chummy and, and all that, you know, they're just so fake that, you know, that just says a lot and can really get in your way. But people overlook that because people always in it seem like in this business oftentimes use other things that the people to put down to then feel like they're raising themselves up and you don't really need to do it. I agree. I think we all agree they do. Oh, okay. All right. So so, Cole, you was in talent management. You was doing that sound like use killing a game, figuring out a lot of things you learned a lot of stuff being thrown into the fire, but then you made a jump to producing. So what made you take that leap? Yeah, when. I got into it, I was like, I'm really liking this management thing. And I think what I liked most about it was like helping develop somebody's career, I think is looking back on is what I like most about it. And then when, you know, we started working with Jennifer Lynch on the rights, this book that my former boss had the rights to, and adapting that into a screenplay and then taking pitch meetings and things like that, I was like, Wow, I like this producing thing, you know? It's like and then and then again, starting to work with my bosses, then boyfriend and now I think husband, who was a writer, producer and developing some stuff with, with them. I was just like, okay, this is what I really want to do. So, you know, when I got into the producing, you know, working with my former boss and the stuff that she had rights to, and I was like, All right, this is what I really want to do. And I will say, I won't tell a lot of tales out of school, but I will say it wasn't a great departure from that first job. I was also asked to help that boyfriend move out of a storage unit. He had about ten of them, I think, around around L.A. and outside of L.A., all the way in Ojai, which is like an hour plus outside. And just like I think after four or five times of like, hey, you have to go help him move and use your car to do it. I was like, I'm not a mover. And I was told I was given an ultimatum, but if I didn't like it, I could leave. So I left. But you left with a lot of experience and knowledge. I did. As I said, I got thrown into that fire, which was a good thing. And I'm and I'm glad I went through that experience. But, you know, it wasn't for the faint of heart. I'm not necessarily suggesting everyone should get into that situation. So I went out and that was before we could really gain traction on getting any of those projects into actual production. But I did get a glimpse of seeing what was going on a little bit in the preproduction side of Rome, that HBO series. But I just went around to companies that I'd met with and people I met with and just said, Hey, I'm trying to be a producer now. You know, I'm not looking for a handout or anything, but just see what I'm up to. And the first meeting I took, I got handed a script called Downloading Nancy. I did not make that movie immediately. It was not the first movie that I produced, but I, I took it and I went. I'd been going out on the party scene in Hollywood and stuff, so I'd mention like club owners and restaurant owners and things like that. And I went to a friend who owned a sushi restaurant and he's like, Yeah, I'll put in 100 grand. I was like, Cool. That was enough to like, get me a seat at the table. But I mean, you know, it was like a $3 million movie. And I think they knew. I knew this person, the only sushi restaurant from Missouri. Or you had just met on your time in L.A.? I just met him from my time in L.A.. He said he said he was on a party scene. So what it sounds like to me is that it was some coke involved. No, I got I got lucky. I never it never got into the Coke scene. I mean, you know, I go to the parties, then it's definitely there. But I never even got into weed, actually, you know, just. Just drink beer. No cigarets, no cigar. Every once in a while. That's about it. But yeah, it was basically well, a friend of mine worked at the sushi restaurant and he'd become friends with the owner. And so that's kind of how that happened. And he's like, I put in 100 grand, and that was enough to like, get me a seat at the table, you know, on this project moving forward. And he read the script before he offered on screen yet let's, let's, let's zoom in to that that moment where you get your first hundred grand, I'm guessing. Is this your first the first big investment in a film? For sure. What did it take to kind of get. Well, this project was it was more than a script when I got it, you know, as I said, he handed me the script, but at this point there was already actor name actors attached or an international sales agent. You know, there was already some funding in place, things like that. At that time. The cast was Holly Hunter, William Hurt and Stellan Skarsgard and Radha mitchell and Basic Early, and it was sort of like, okay, 300 grand and three months. We're in Canada filming this movie with that cast. And then things changed. You know, actor became unavailable and this actor eventually dropped off. And then years down the road and it's none of that cast and it's a completely different cast of Maria Bello and Jason Patric and Rufus Sewell and Amy Brenneman and Michael Nyquist ended up joining at that great Swedish actor that passed away a few years ago because Johan Ranke was from Sweden. So that was a good buddy of his. But, you know, I stuck on the projects. I thought it was a really strong script and instead of bringing 100 grand in, that friend actually didn't end up putting money in. In the end. But a different friend ended up putting the bulk of the equity financing in the $3 million movie. So Jason Patrick was used later down the road, wasn't he? Yeah. Jason and I became friends on downloading Nancy Like it. It was very interesting because again, I ended up producing a couple of movies before this very tiny ones, but this was the first time with actors kind of on this level and it was really interesting. Like Maria Bello was just in character the whole time and Jason Patrick was in character all day on set. But as soon as he called Rapp, he's ready to go to the Irish pub and have a beer. You know, Rufus Sewell stepped out of a scene and he's joking around and this is a very dramatic, intense film if you probably haven't seen it. But I am proud of it. And but it is very dark and a little bit depressing. And like Rufus Soul stepping out, joking around, Amy Brenneman was just fantastic. But it's very and Amy was there for like a week or so, but the other three were there pretty much the whole time, and I was just there. Acting styles. They're all phenomenal actors. But yeah, Jason and I became friends and we've worked together a few times now. But yeah, that was, that was kind of it. It was just like, yeah, meeting people, like staying in contact, sticking out on this project and ended up, yeah, bringing the bulk of the financing to it years later. And I mean I was taking meetings and people are like, Oh yeah, is there gap financing and bridge finance? I didn't know what those things were and you couldn't Google those things back then. So like I literally just had to like, learn without asking and acting like I didn't know what I was talking about. So I'd be in meetings and a speaker, huh? Uh huh. So, so yeah. Magic. So yeah, so but that was handed to me. Didn't take off right away, but I ended up getting hired on like a movie through Craigslist was my first movie. No way. Before before we move on, how did you get paid for that first one? You bring somebody in, but where it is you were doing work before, where you weren't getting paid. Like at what point do you write build in some kind of producer fees in the budget? You're going to get paid? Yeah, absolutely. And and I didn't get myself paid enough on that movie, to be honest. That was another shoot in the first situation after the first one, because I was clueless on what I was doing. And I and I and I honestly think that the the lead producers on that were a bit clueless, too. Like they'd only made one feature film before this and I think that maybe they had lost sight of their good moral upbringings too, and how they handled certain things. It was funny because just several years ago one of them called me and he was trying to pitch me projects to like bring money to and I and I started laughing at him. I'm like, Are you serious? Like after that situation? So I only got paid. I brought in $1.3 million equity to that. A lot of that, probably about half of that over half of that movie was was financed with pre-sold territories based on the names in the script and stuff like that. Tax incentives out of Canada. And then so yeah, my 1.3 million equity that I brought was like a huge chunk and I only got paid 20 grand and I was there every day on set producing stuff like. It's a Wild West, right? Like what you make from doing that is all based on the contracts and engagements and whatever. I mean, some people can. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the other producers got paid like 150 each and I got 20, which I thought was a lot of money time, you know. But you live and you learn. Totally since. We're already here, the financing. And that's what everybody wants to know about and learn about, Let's just dig into that. So a first time producer you've learned from being in a fire and you have come a long way since your first time. You've done a lot of produce and you have put a lot of things together and you have even figured out how to navigate in a good way through the distribution. So for the people who's listening, what can you tell us? So, you know, we know what we need to be looking out for, trying to get into financing and how to find moneys and all those things that demystify the whole financing side of it. I just open it up to you for that. Yeah. I wish. You know, I get asked that question a lot and I wish that I had like a simple good answer to help people, you know, that are trying to find financing for their projects. And it's and, you know, I don't think I'm going to give you any groundbreaking information. It's it's a lot of, I think, practical kind of common sense stuff. But like just as I mentioned on that downloading Nancy situation, I went to people that I knew directly that I thought might have some available capital, you know, based on what they did owning restaurants and clubs and things like that. And so that's how I kind of started out. And then, you know, I mentioned the like gap financing and bridge financing and things like that, and that that gets into the more institutionalized sort of just like a typical like bank loan or something like that because you basically you're, you're using collateral. Not that a lot of bankers maybe here in Missouri would consider collateral. But if you've got, you know, a movie with certain actors of a certain level attached and you've got a sales agent that has a good track record and they have sales estimates that say this movie's worth this, and say the low end, you know, you based when you get sales estimates on a movie, you kind of have like you're this is what we think is a maybe price and sometimes you get a median price and then you kind of get your take price like, okay, we're going to ask for this price. And that's what it kind of usually boils down to is the ask price and what you'll take for the take for the movie for that certain territory. And what you're talking about is like, here's how much France TV will probably pay for this. This is how much we'll get in Hungary. Exactly like stuff like that exact. We'll get two grand from Hungary and ten grand from here or something. Exactly. And it and if you go so far to actually pre-sell it, it means that France TV bought it and actually gives you a contract that says on delivery of this movie, we'll pay you 20 grand kind of thing. So that's a pre-sale that you can borrow against as well. That's a little bit more harder collateral, let's say. But then you have say the estimates on those, you know, saying, yeah, we think France TV will give us 20 grand, we think Hungary will give us ten grand for all rights and things like that. And if this sales agent has a good reputation and you can go to a lender and get a GAP loan, which is filling a gap in your budget, it's again, very practical that what you're saying. So typically the most you're going to get on a gap loan is going to be 20% of your low end ask price total. So if 500 grand is your international sort of take price total, you get 20% of that loan to you. And what is an interest rate for something like that? I mean, it's you know, it really depends. And I mean, that's the thing. It's like there are banks that will do these loans. You know, the thing is about like independent side, like when you're getting started out, you know a they're going to, you know, look at your track record, things like that. Another thing is banks, they don't want to mess with small loans like they don't really want to mess that anything low is lower than 3 million bucks total. So it's like, well, whatever you're borrowing against, like say you're borrowing as the tax incentive and some pre-sold territories, plus some sales estimates. You know, most banks don't want to mess with that unless it's 3 million plus dollars. Some will do a million. And you know, if you're talking about an independent film, $1,000,000 loan or you're financing, it's a pretty good you know, so it's some will do that. And I mean, since the pandemic and the shutdown, some play a little bit lower than that. And then you have these essentially banks but independent banks that are independent lenders, that this is what they do. They do gap loans or they do bridge financing or. Whatever specifically for the film industry. Yes. Oh, wow. Yes. And those guys don't really like to mess around below a million bucks. You know, again, some of them they will depending on your relationships or how good the project is or how good the collateral is. How does this work. When I feel like we're in a world where we have superhero films of 100 and 200 million, and then we have this low budget stuff being made all the time under a million. And like from what I the 3 to 15 or 3 to $20 million movies are very there are a lot less now, right. Like yeah. So it's kind of mid range stuff that's not like super fanfare that people know about or stuff that people are like trying to pull off for under a couple million or even less these days. Is that presale world. I remember even when I was in producing class and film school like we did pre-sales and I'm like, Is that world still? Is that all still relevant? And that's still going on. People are still making it, or how have things changed with like the digital revolution and everybody being able to shoot? It's still there, but it's tough for sure because we're in this weird space of where like you can get an actor that say Netflix loves because of their algorithm and because of it. They've worked well on their platform, but you can't get an international sales agent to take on and give you decent sales estimates because that buyer in France and Hungary don't doesn't know who that actor is. So it's tough because we're still on a very antiquated model when it comes to independently financed films and to where it's like. And that's why you still see these like these action films, you know, that they say or ten or $20 million or whatever, that most of the time the filmmakers are really getting about two or $3 million to make those films and those the Bruce Willis and, you know, before his his sickness and stuff like that, that these guys get a few million bucks to do a few days on these action films or somebody like what's his name Big X rustler guy that was in the new era rock the well, the rock is a superstar but what's the other guy that he was in the latest Blade movie Big. Is it Batista? Yes. Dave Bautista in a Guardians of the Galaxy Guardians. Yeah. Yeah. So like him, he'll play football. Yeah. He's a wrestler. Oh, yeah. He was like a wrestler and then an MMA fighter and stuff like that. You know, he'll get a few million dollars to do lead one of those action films. And then it's like on the independent side, it kind of screws things up. It's like, well, you can see like in that film blade or whatever, He's a really fantastic actor as well. He's got that dramatic. And if you try to go to him for something else, like say, you got this really cool drama that you think Dave Bautista will be great in. He's still used to getting paid $2 million for an independent film and you're like I'm trying to make the film for $2 million total. And actually with your international value on an independent drama, I can't for sure pre-sell that for more than enough money to make it, because you also got to think about the fact that like there's fees and all these loans and all these sales companies and things like that, you know, too. So it's like it's like, okay, if the sales estimates come in at $2 million. You really need the value to be at $3 million. You know what I mean? To even to make a little bit of money kind of thing. So I'll be honest, I got it not to sound negative, but it's like that's why you're also like a lot of times independent films are set up for failure because you're squeezing in this window that this cast that has this perceived value because of past movies that they've done and sold has availability for this small window. And sometimes you're like, Wow, I only have three weeks rush into production. Becoming the movie that you did with me was like that. Our lead actor, you know, had bigger stuff going on. We ended up shooting two days a month from the rest of the film and we had to rush it into production just to get those two days and then get the rest of it later because we're jumping around big TV shows and studio movies and things like that. And it's just tough to to focus on making a really good movie because you don't really get proper preparation time and things like that. And again, you're basing your cast every somebody you want to cast, you have to call your international sales agent. You know, you can't just be like, Oh, that's a really fantasy stage actor. Like, well, they don't have a value kind of thing. So it's it's really like jumping through a lot of hoops that you've got to do. And again, you're dealing with the international sales agent and then the financier that you signed on with to borrow all these loans. They're really going to have final say at this point. You know, if you got those kind of things, you have a bond company that is basically insurance to say that the movie is going to get done, which all these lenders require, you know, if you borrow all this stuff. So it's just like I spent my entire time on this film becoming that just and I did in Kentucky, financing it, basically. And then I once we got done, I didn't have post-production finance that I had to finance that you know, because basically an independent investor that decided didn't want to invest in it anymore. Do you ever just think I should get out of film and go into real estate? I'm going to raise the money in those things. Yeah, I mean, those thoughts are definitely always, always crossed in your mind, you know? But obviously we get into this business because we love it for whatever, you know. But I'm definitely, you know, not opposed to other business ventures, but yeah, I've raised a lot of money in my day and, so I guess there's maybe a maybe a career path somewhere else if this all doesn't work out. Jeff a favorite project you've worked on. So have a favorite project. I've worked on. For any particular reason? For any particular reason? It's a great question. It's a hard question. I really like that downloading Nancy film. I mean, again, that was like special to me because I did a couple of small films, as I said before that, But that was the first one, you know, that went to Sundance. And then I was really proud of and had that whole experience and so on, and got to work with those level of actors and then became friends with even like Jason Patrick and even like, you know, Rufus Sewell. I'd say I'm friendly with not friends. Like, I can't call Jason. I can call up and we'll go, you know, hang out, grab lunch or whatever. If I'm in L.A., Rufus, maybe I'll see at Home Depot, which is actually the last person place that I saw him and we chat for a minute or whatever, and he's really great. And the same with like Maria Bello, you know, it's like, if I see her would say, Hello, Amy, you know. But that was that was a really special film for me, even though going through a lot of life lessons and it being actually really hard for me to film same time, but at least it was something. And then getting to work with a fantastic director like Johann Rank is just like, you know, pretty much the biggest TV director out there now. And I'm sure that there's going to be a big film come out from him pretty soon, unfortunately. I guess he just departed the Dune TV series, so we'll see what happens with that one. But I'm sure he's got plenty of other things happening. What was it like to be at Sundance last time? I was actually at 28 Sundance. It was a really surreal experience. Some friends went out and we kind of shared a place or whatever. I mean, I was good friends with my producing partner on it, Jason Isaacs as well. And he and I shared like a condo out there with some some friends and stuff like that. So we had some friends and the investors were good friends of ours and their family came out. So it was nice to have that. And yeah, it was just really surreal because like we had so many people there that we didn't have enough tickets. So a friend of mine got up early and went and got in line to get tickets for my own movie that I produced. And I'm standing outside in the snow on this line with these people that are like camped out to buy tickets. And one of them, like, overheard my friend say something about me producing, downloading, Nancy. And all of a sudden I'm hoping like a Q&A in line with these people. And these are just film fans from all over the United States that have driven to Sundance in Park City, Utah, and like are sleeping in their cars in the snow just because they love watching movies. So to see that that was there was was like a really was like a really cool experience for sure. I'm really bad about watching other movies when I'm at these festivals, you know, because it's like a part of its work. Part of it. Yeah. I mean, you're networking, going to meetings all the time, like you're, you're there to pitch your next film or something and. Yeah, right. Yeah. You get a lot of those meetings. I mean, I would say Sundance is not quite a film market yet outside of the films that are in it. But that said, yes, there's a ton of people, especially from North America and a lot of international folks as well from the film industry there too there. So it's like, yeah, a lot of important networking and meeting with people and things like that. Like say when you go to the Cannes Film Festival, which, you know, I would say is the biggest film festival in the world. It also has a film market at the same time, same thing with Berlin, Berlin, Berlinale has the European film market going on at the same time, like we have the American film market, but that's its own standoff thing. So it was a really great experience and as I said, it was like I was there in 2008 for the first time. And and I haven't really been without a film, so I've been three times. So my next time was in 2016 with Anti Birth, which is a film that I'm very proud of as well. I like that film a lot. It's a weird out there film, but it definitely had changed a bit. Then I went back in 2018 with a short film actually called Laser System by Shaka King. Shaka did Judas and the Black Messiah, so really cool director to work with on there. And since I didn't really have like a business agenda because it was a short film and Shaka wasn't even really like, like I had people like hitting me up saying, Hey, we want to sponsor a party for your film. And Shock is like, this film is about racism. We don't really I don't really think we need to have a party for it go to that like these places that also, like, wanted to like, pick it up and distribute it or whatever. He was just like, I really just want to put it on my own YouTube channel kind of thing. It was a very personal and special project for him. I mean, even though it was funny as well, so that I didn't really have like a business agenda, so I was there. So I basically my agenda became to not pay for a drink or a meal. And I think I achieved that by going to enough parties and stuff like that for getting free food and drinks. You mentioned the American film market. Have you participated in that? Yeah, the American film market. I participated in that back at that first job actually, which kind of got me into my I guess, third job, so to speak. So my first job at the talent management company. Then I went out on my own as an independent producer and then I partner in a German finance and production company. So the first time I went to AFM American Film Market, I was still at that management company and my boss had somehow met this guy from Marbella, Spain. He's half English now French, but grew up in Marbella, so spoke perfect Spanish and you know, French and English as well. And he had completed his first feature film and then had his second feature film and posted that times from some from some investors from from our Bayer. And my boss was like sick the day that she was supposed to take him around to all these meetings at AFM because it was his first AFM to and so I had to take him around to AFM, to all these meetings, and so I'd never even done it before. But it's like, you know, they hosted in the Loews Hotels, the main area and basically all the, the rooms are taken over and turned into offices or booths, whatever you want to call them. And then, you know, the bar area is kind of like where everybody kind of mingles or whatever and out by the pool and things like that. So that was my my first time kind of again, getting thrown into a fire situation. And it's enjoyable, you know, for me to get kind of thrown into those situations sometimes. And it was good. So beyond that, when I would go back years later just with my own projects or whatever, it's more targeted meetings for me of people from the business, not in Los Angeles really, because you know, people in Los Angeles, you can meet them at other times or whatever. So I try to like aim at other hotels that weren't as busy. So you could get a seat and sit down and stuff like that and admittedly maybe not be hassled by the million people trying to pitch their project in the lobby of the Loews, which you can't really do anymore. They've cut off that like because used to you had to have a badge to like, get on the elevator and go up to the rooms and go to the offices and stuff like that. But now, even just to get through the front door to go to the bar, you have to do that. And it's like and I commend people for doing it, you know, like for sure. But it's just I was there for my own reasons or whatever and it's just like what I would suggest for anybody that's going to AFM to try to pitch their project is to figure out who's going to be there, reach out to them in advance and try to set a meeting. And I know it's tough, but come up with a good pitch, get some good pitch material, a pitch deck that looks good, a mock up poster. If you can create a sizzle reel or a teaser or something for your project, even if you're pulling footage from other people's stuff, even better, if you can create your own as long as it looks good and send and get people's attention and get get meetings that way, ask for meetings as opposed to just approaching people that are walking down the street and stuff like that. Not to say not. I'm not saying doing it. I'm not saying not do it Like it could happen. Like something could still happen for sure. And I'm sure. Kind of like selling your rap album on Venice Beach. It's like, Hey, you never know who you might ruin and do. You're going to give out a lot of CDs, but it's probably better to be a little more strategic. Yes. Yes, I concur. Have you tried that, Dan? Hey, I mean, Michael was talking about that rap album. Missed it because you were busy being successful. But he's working on Give Me Off the Pole, the Rap album. And so I'm doing a couple of features now that. Michael was on the poll. Now he's off the poll, but I'm on the album doing some features. As the name of my album after poll after poll. Okay, They call me Dirty D. Are you off yet? Are you off the polls? I am not. Out because I mean, I don't have plans out or this if you're if you're going to work after. This. Yeah. I am the. After. Party. I am still on the pole. It's taken pole dancing classes and everything. Legitimately. Getting it in. We're we're still figuring out how much of all the pole stuff's true or not. So it's all. We saw pictures. We saw pictures we did see. Oh, man. Yeah, I'm. Just in training. Are they appropriate? They're appropriate. Yeah, they. Appropriate. You know, still got to get rid of. I'm still working on getting rid of the dad bod. I started to develop, you know, got to get that core right. You don't have any kids. You have a dad by kids. Hey, you don't tell it apart. You know, I just drive a minivan. You know, I'm looking to be somebody's step daddy, you know? You know, you got to get to work. I like that because you always looking for a deal. And what I got when I got married, I got a two for one. I got a three year old and a wife. So we got to look out. For the and. Two for one. And so we're going to deal. And you got a minivan? I definitely have a minivan. The minivan, too. Cool. I'm gonna get me a minivan. Put all your gear in. This isn't a movie. This is the real thing. Okay? Oh, yeah. Where is. This? Is this like, this is just my life. I got four kids in a van, and when they're not in the van, gear is in the van, as is the best. Yeah. So that's great advice on trying to contact people who you want to get to before you get to an event. I think that's great advice for excellence. Like she talks about all the time, like don't be sloppy. You know, I like playing. Pay for a badge. You know, it's like it sucks 500 bucks or whatever it is these days. I can't remember, but it's just like people are going to say, even if you approached them on the street, if they see you have a badge on them, they're going to take you a bit more serious, you know? So try to do it is the most right way. I'm not saying don't do anything outside of the box. Don't fake it to get in some room or I mean, do it. It's doing your hustle. Do what you got to do. But is RFM even relevant anymore? I mean. What is it? It is like it's a lot of smaller films, to be honest. It's like, you know, believe it or not, there is a ton of small films that are out in the world still being viewed and still making money, even outside of Netflix and Hulu and on the streamers and outside of the theaters and things like that. People are still making money off DVD in certain places. You can do it. Mart is the place here in the United States and the specialty stores basically. Here, the Wal-Mart boxes, those boxes where it just looks like some might dumped a bunch of DVDs. It's actually more of a strategy that people are making good money from, like the DVD boxes. Well, that's the thing. That's the thing about DVDs and like Wal-Mart or the big box stores, Wal-Mart, it's like it's a very talk about antiquated systems. It's like in your distribution deal, you're going to have a financial reserve for return DVDs. That means if Wal-Mart orders 10,000 units of your DVDs and they only sell 500 units, they're returning the rest of those. They don't just keep those and stick them in the box at the end. The ones in the box at the end, because they've already sold a bunch of other ones. So that's the thing about DVDs. It's like a it costs a lot to like make them and ship them out, but they could be shipped back and then you have to do something with them. So that's always the risk of making the DVDs. Obviously for like Redbox, you know, it's still around. Like those are a lot cheaper because you're not going to do all the cover art, the packaging, and it's cheaper to ship because, you know, they're not as heavy and things like that. But you have to think about all those all those things. You got to. Filmmaker Let's make up a completely hypothetical filmmaker. You got a filmmaker. Named Dame Paris. Not Dame Paris is a hypothetical filmmaker. Pandora's Sam Paris. So they got 200 grand, they got a feature. It's kind of a low budget indie thing, and they think they can pull it off for that do post for that. They got 50 already. They need another one. 50. What's your advice for them about getting the rest of that money, whether they should make that movie or whether they should they get a bigger budget and get some more name actors or should they just talk to me as if I'm hypothetical? Sam Ferris. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And let me jump back and finish answering another question. First. Put a pin in this. So like film financing, as I said, people, you know, friends, family, whoever, restaurants or dentist. Dennis or big on investing in films for some reason. So there you go. Orthodontist Oh, or. The dinosaur Worth it. All right. That's that's the that's what I meant. Orthodontist. Sorry. The fancy waitress. I've invested in them for my kids, so I think it's time. Yeah, because. It's just don't get. Me. Exactly. So there's that, you know, And that's still a thing. Even at more time. Million dollar movies like that is still a thing. And even it's still a thing where you have to put somebody's kid in the movie to get that investment and things like that. Are these are the Donnas getting their money back? I guess to step back on that question, most people that I have met that have some form of wealth where they can risk 100 grand plus to a million plus because 100 grand is usually just as hard as a million, because the person that's going to give you 100 grand is not a billionaire. You know what I mean? It's not worth their time or whatever. It's just sort of like the person that the 100 grand is as valuable as them to the person that's going to give you the million, you know, it is to them. And not always. Obviously, it's that's not apples to apples, but it's still it's a lot of money. That the people that are rich enough to give 100 are usually in general rich enough to give a million. Yeah. And they do things with lawyers and there may have that kind of money because they're smart, you know. So it's like if they're going have to pay their lawyer 20 grand just to give you 100 grand, it doesn't really make sense. But that said, yes, these are the people you need to approach and you need to come at them with like a real business plan. A lot of times people come to me and they have like, Oh, I got this TV actor and, you know, they're famous. They're going to we're going to make $1,000,000 movie with them. Like, No, you're not, because I don't have any film sales value. You know, it's like, if you do that, then you're completely reliant on making an amazing film that goes to one of the five festivals around the world that mean anything in regards to sales. Because these people that play 100 film festivals, you're just overexposing your film and the distributor doesn't want that most of the time. Sometimes they like it as part of their marketing plan. But you really you got to be careful of playing like short films. Knock yourself out, play a thousand film festivals as long as you want to pay those fees or whatever to get it. But if you got a feature film that you're trying to monetize later by distributing it, I would be careful on how you expose it. You know, talk to somebody and try to get somebody advice that's in this business. So what I'm also getting back to is like, yes, approach these private individuals, but also understand institutionalized financing. Again, learn what gap financing is, learn what bridge financing is. Bridge financing is just short term financing, by the way. It's it's getting you from here to there. It's a bridge. It's like, okay, Netflix is buying my movie. They're going to give me$1,000,000 on June 15th, but I have to pay my actor in April. So I go to this lender and they give me a bridge loan to be able to pay my actor, too. That Netflix money comes through in May. But of course, you're paying a higher interest rate on that bridge loan. So just be aware of all this stuff. And that's an independent film. A lot of your budget goes to these financing fees and sales fees and things like that too. And these money finders, this person that you signed a deal with that says, Oh, I know people that have money, but I get 5% of everything that I raise for you. You know what I mean? And then that person's taking her out and then the financiers have their own costs on top of that. So it's just there's your costs. On just financing the movie alone can get out of control, you know, So you just have to be very aware of and cautious of all these things. So it's understand finance, you know, like understand because again, like a lender or of any worth is going to do due diligence. Like I even had a private investor that hired me to do diligence for films that he was going to invest in and honest that I told him not to do on a couple of them, but I think he did it anyways, and I'd say he didn't make his money back. Is it like getting a mortgage for a house? Like all the different things? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. There and questions are going to ask. Absolutely. Credit checks and all these things. Absolutely. When I borrow money against the tax incentive, say when I go to Kentucky to do the becoming film in Kentucky, when I go to because I got that from an institutionalized lender. So it wasn't a bank, but it was a literally a company set up to do debt financing for films, specifically. And you have to go through all this due diligence and stuff like that. You have to pay their lawyer fees like ten grand. I think we had to pay their lawyer to do all this stuff. So what I was getting at is like, so I'm borrowing. Is this tax incentive, Right? Well, the thing is, the nice thing about for that lender against tax incentives is as long as you go there and spend the money you get, the tax incentive doesn't even matter if you finish the movie or not. You could die in post, but as long as you've spent the money in the tax incentive state, they get their money back on that loan. So that's a good investment for them, unless you don't spend the money like you're supposed to and check the boxes that you're supposed to in that state. So I had to personally sign on that loan that I am personally guaranteeing that I'm going to spend that money in Kentucky per the budget that they've approved. Have you ever signed before for yourself on another project? Yeah, I have. I mean, and it's funny, it's like, you know, it's like I'm 40 years old now and I'm like, staying with my father's still in Missouri because it's like I haven't really decided permanently what I want to do next, you know? And I think I do want to stay in Missouri and I think I want to stay in the country and I want to land. So like trying to find 100 acres out in the country that's secluded, overlooking a creek bottom or something is tough. And I was looking at this property at one point that was going to be like a million bucks. And my dad's like, be careful. And I was like, Yeah, many times I've borrowed a million bucks. I'm kind of. You know, it's just like I've paid them back so far. So yeah, a little bit different. So yeah, it's just like, understand those things, do your research. And I would also just say that when you're going to meet somebody to pitch them about financing or being in your money, do your research on that person, see what they've done before. I don't do a meeting like I literally I knew these two, but I Googled you before I came here to this podcast, you know, So it's like, do that stuff and don't. So when you find out. The bad stuff, No, no, I'm here aren't that, you know. But point being is don't go in and think, oh, my movies like these other movies that made a bunch of money and I've got this actor that's in this popular TV show. So they're obviously have value. That's not true. That's not always true. It's becoming more true that TV is getting better and, you know, becoming more of a creative medium where it's like you can cast some of these people from these big shows, but it's not always true for sure. So to circle back to your question about get a $200,000 movie right budget and you got 50 grand. And you're thinking, I don't know anybody, I can't raise a bunch of millions of dollars, but maybe I can pull this off with all my friends and people and they're good actors. I know for 200 grand to make this and hopefully I get it into some major festival or something like that. But right now I only got 50. So that's just this is a scenario. Yeah. So in this scenario, my advice to this fictitious person is going to be take the 50 grand you have and make a movie for 50 grand, because if you raise 200 grand, you're kind of in no man's land as far as like the sales, you kind of getting to a place where you need somewhat of a recognizable actor. Because I had the same thought. The second movie that I ever did, me and my friends raised 120 grand and with friends and family, it was like literally, I'd say our smallest investment was $1,000, and I'd say our biggest was $20,000 and we put 120 together total. And that was just like me producing kind of line, producing, paying, doing the crafty, like all this kind of stuff. And we're just like pulling our favors in Hollywood. Luckily, we had made some like friends at our own clubs and parents lived in Bel Air and had tennis courts in their yard and things like that. But we got the film at for free. You know, we got very lucky in that sense, and we had some cool actors in it, like my buddy Jason Mewes, Jay from Jay and Silent Bob, who was my roommate for a while. He was in the movie not like a lead, but he made it. He made a cameo. I remember Andy Mill, innocuous, like Andy was a good buddy of mine. Andy was in it. And so we had the Jimmy Duvall from like Gone in 60 Seconds and like the Greg Araki films and things like that. So it's like we had Simon Rex, you know, who, you know, just did a fantastic job in Red Rocket that came out of Cannes a couple of years ago. So we had these people that are recognizable, but it's like, I'm shopping this movie and this is a long time ago. So this is a different time. This is when like DVD came out before VOD, you know, kind of thing. Netflix streaming didn't exist at this point, but you got these people and you're like, I made a movie 120 grand. It's awesome. We're going to make millions of dollars. It's not the case, you know, It's like we didn't get any upfront money from any distributor you know, we put it straight out on VOD, which at the time was not something that was really happening in a lot, where independent films were going straight to VOD, you know, kind of thing. So I had a straight to VOD deal. I had to get a DVD deal from another company when I said, Hey, I want you to release the DVD. And at the same time that they're going to put it on video demand, they're like, What? It doesn't work like that. Where DVD we come out before video on demand. I'm not trying to say that I invented day and date, which means releasing on one medium at the same time is another. Like when a movie is on video on demand and in theaters at the same time. That's a day and day release. But like, that's what I wanted to do back in the day. And people thought and like this DVD company it was crazy. And then ends up, you know, the VOD came out and the DVD still never even came out. I got a box of Blu rays, I think, but I never saw it anywhere commercially. So it just came out on VOD in that movie is never recouped. It's funny, you know, like we got some money back. Like, it's not not that it hasn't seen anything, but it got some money back. But it's just like it was 120 grand, you know, like that's never coming back. And again, luckily, that was all like friends and family kind of want to do it, but I sure wish I'd at least we'd get the movie and pay them back their money, but it hadn't. So 50 grand is kind of this level where you feel like, Hey, if you lose it all, like nobody's going to sue you probably. But if you kind of go in that area between what, 50 and why you're kind of in this place where to make your money back is going to be really, really tough. Unless you have a beginning actor and you're not going to get a big name actor unless you spend up to such. Yeah, so so it's like if you're going to do say 200 grand, if you had 200 grand, like the question you asked earlier, do you use that 200 grand to get a big name actor? Sure. That's not a bad plan. You know what I mean? Like, they'd be like, I've got real money, but make sure that you know, that that actor has value that you can then take and raise money for because, like right now it's the chicken before the egg sort of thing. It's like money before actor, actor before money. Because yeah, if, if it was just easy just to like to get name actors, I could get financing all day long, you know what I mean? Like, that's not a problem for me. It's just trying to get the financing and the actor at the same time. That's the rub. The tricky part, because a lot of these agents, especially if they don't know you, they're like, Oh yeah, sure, we'll take your offer, escrow the money in our escrow account. And then sometimes they'll see us grow them, won't see us grow the money, and your start date gets pushed because you didn't raise the rest of your financing in time. And they're like, All right. So yeah sorry. Brad Pitt's no longer available. We're not giving you your money back. So pick somebody else, you know, which technically shouldn't be legal. And sure, you can sue them. But guess what? It costs money to sue people. It's like I kind of touched on earlier, like the becoming film out of investor back out who literally had his money mansion or prove to me that he had the money sitting in an account specially for the movie. He'd written a letter of commitment saying he was investing in the film and they backed out. Sure, I could probably sue him, but if he's got that kind of money, he's going to be able to hire a good lawyer and fight me, and that's going to drag on for years. And I'm trying to make a movie. It's like that liar liar scene where he's like, You scratch my car, you know, And then he has the dialog. The guys remember that? Yeah, it's well, it's like people literally will do business, like the idea that somebody is going to sue them or things like that. It's like. But knowing that most people won't you because it's, it's, it's very easy to say I'll sue that person and you could be right. But that doesn't mean it's going to cost you 20 grand just to get a lawsuit. Sometimes as I've gotten money back just from threatening to sue. So sometimes it works the other way. You're like, you know, you're not going to sue, but they don't know you. Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying I'm not saying don't do it, but just saying don't think that. Oh, it's so easy to sue somebody when they wrong you to get your money and they have. Like arbitration groups. Like a lot of times when you sign a contract you say, hey, if this doesn't go well, we would go to arbitration at this state. And this place. Also costs money. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. It all costs money now. So like, yeah, if you have 200 grand cash in the bank and it's like, get a bigger name actor. Sure. But I would say if you get 50 grand and you're planning on making a $200,000 movie, it should be a horror movie and you should figure out how to do it for 50 because if you're going to do some drama for 200 grand, it better be the best thing that's ever been made as far as a 200 grand drama. And you have to get into Sundance or Berlin or Cannes. And then after that is like South by Southwest or Toronto, obviously, or South by Southwest and Tribeca. And if you don't get in those festivals, you're more than likely not making your money back. Not to say that it doesn't happen, of course it does. There's people out there just finding horror films, no name actors, but they're just like, This looks Yeah. Like when you read my bio, that diverse terror label that I started, that's four super micro-budget horror films and I'm making money on all of them. And those are not name actors. These are nonunion across the board, including cast, crew, everybody. It's young groups of filmmakers. We're shooting these things in like two weeks. You got like maybe eight, ten people, including cast total on set per day. It's like I got one filming right now in Kentucky. I'm rolling the dice on a new group that were weren't even there. You don't even have to be on set. No, I'm just on the phone and remotely I can't get paid enough to make it make sense for the production or me to be on set for these things. But like, I was just in Kentucky at the end of last year making a film that I was a hands on producer on, and I worked with some crew members that I got to know a little bit more about. They got to know what I was doing and they pitched me doing this. So it's like I got their small horror movie financed. And so, yeah, we're on our second week of filming right now. What is like a range of the budgets for these and what are the range of some of the profits? I can you talk about that? I guess so. You can be loose, You can do. What I will say. There is these tiny movies are the only ones that I'm saying checks for every month. Hmm. So Amazon Prime or from where? So I sell them to a distributor that then you know sub distribute out to their Amazon deals and their shutter deals and things like that. Yeah. So it's usually starts out as like a transactional thing, you know, like the rental for 399 or whatever, and then it will go to like a cable channel or a streamer based on whoever pays the most money. Like Shudder's been licensing a lot of these things. So these movies, again, they're I've made movies for millions of dollars where I've never seen a dime after what the initial MGM Money guarantee the distributor pays upfront. Or if I have like even that. And again, Sundance doesn't mean you're going to make money. My 2016 film, anti birth film I'm very proud of. I've got really great reviews. Again, it's a weird movie. It's not for everybody got with a good distributor, you know? IFC Midnight, I think again, 2016 Sundance came out later that year in 2016, I think around September, October I think I've seen beyond the money that they paid upfront 20 grand, which and what they paid upfront wasn't near what the budget was, you know. So that 1000 broken, even basic. No, well that one was financed with a grant that they have in northern Ontario and some tax incentives and things like that. But Yeah, there's still some debt against sales estimates and things like that that are out there or whatever. But I would say these tiny movies are the only and I'm not making a silent movie. These aren't movies that like I'm actually not proud of. These movies are I put in them by a clever you know it's like because they are like, I'm excited about this group of filmmakers that I've been working with that work at upstate New York. And I think from what I've seen so far, I'm going to be excited about working with these guys in Kentucky, and I'm looking for other filmmakers to do this with. We just had some guys on who might have a film perfectly for you. Go. Well. Do it. All Connect. Yeah, let's do it. Why you right here tell people how they can contact you where they need to come find us to find out about coal pain. My email is out there. I would say to anybody like, I got it. I get a lot of script pitches. You know, it's like personalize it towards me or anybody else that you're pitching your script to, your project to, you know, definitely don't do a mass email. I'm on Facebook, I'm 40, so I'm getting old, you know, So I don't even have an Instagram or anything like that. But I'm here in good crowd. Yeah, well. Yeah, we're all up and yeah. I have I've Twitter, but I'm, I maybe I check it once a month kind of thing. I thought it was like, All right, this is a good way to stay in contact with the celebrities that I work with. Like we'll be friends on Twitter. And that way I'm like, texting them all the time and it's like, All right, I'm on. And you add this person and then they don't follow you back like some of them do. Brooklyn Decker followed me back and it's actually on followed me back. So some of elements. Though, we need to have cold back. We need to do a whole thing just on a distribution and we don't have time to really get into that. Now, you touched on a little bit, but that's so weedy in the weeds we need to get into in there. We don't want to have a distribution panel so we could bring in like a bunch of people, like have people like different spaces I mean, he could obviously do it all by himself, but we could get kind of different because there's a lot of areas of distribution, because I have talked a lot about my films is that I made about 10% or less from selling them directly in 90% from public speaking about them afterwards. You know, I mean, that's a special thing. I can do it. So that's definitely no, I mean, that's a thing you can do is like you can definitely travel with your film and show up and do Q&A and turn it into an event. And you make money that way. And a lot of people have. But just know that when you do that, when you self distribute, as I'm sure you'll probably agree, you're becoming a distributor. So it's like, do you have time to do that with your day job that you're paying your bills with? And it's like there was times like that, like got to Sundance, like with an anti birth movie because my company at one point I had a small distribution arm where we're releasing small independent films on VOD and things like that. We did some small theatrical and anti births, did not get the offers upfront that I was hoping out of Sundance, and I was like, Maybe I distribute this thing myself. And then I'm just like, But then I'm going to have to commit the next two years of my life to distributing this movie. And I was like, I can't do that, you know? So it's like I took the best offer on the table. Well, I don't think I actually took the highest money offer on the table. I just I felt the overall deal. I felt the overall deal was the best with with IFC Midnight. It wasn't a huge gap in the money. Maybe like there was three offers and it was like maybe a 20 grand difference between all those three offers, you know? But I just felt that the back end on this IFC deal looked a little bit better. But as I said, years go by and I only seen an extra 20 grand. And when I say I don't mean me, I mean, you know, people who. Sell. Money internally. So I would say, yeah, I mean, self-distribution is definitely a viable way, but you have to become a distributor. It has to become your job. I think if you if you want to make real money at it, I, I folded up my distribution arm because we didn't have real money to put behind it. I thought, you know, because when I put my first movie VOD, we had a highly alphabetical place title. So just because of that on cable VOD, it got a pretty good return on the first check, actually. And so I thought like and usually two when you sell your film to these distributors, you're like, Hey, I've got these ideas and this and that. And I saw, Oh, that's great. And then you sign the contract and you don't hear from them anymore because they're just going to do it how they do it. So I thought, okay, I'm going to bring filmmakers in and they can be their own marketing team with our guidance and we'll help them create assets and that's how we'll do it. You know, a very down and dirty style. But then you realize a lot of these filmmakers don't want to be their own distributor either. They want to give you the movie and move on to the next thing. And you're also like caring for some nice baby, like you're a nursery or something. People are dropping their babies off with you and like, how are they doing? I mean, how are things going, you know, and taking in every day? I mean, they've worked, they've thought about this for you. Oh, yeah. And all their money. Yeah. Nobody knows the film better than them. That was the whole idea behind it. But it was like that was right when DVD kind of dying and studios were pushing their stuff on VOD. So I had like there was you had to compete with movies that are getting millions of dollars spent on marketing. So it's like a little grassroots campaign wasn't necessarily working out. So and that was the other thing these filmmakers, like I as a filmmaker myself, I didn't want to be like, Oh, we stopped distributing Here's your movie Back, helped them get placed and stuff if they wanted my help. Some of them were mad at me, but I had to financially like it wasn't making sense to employ a distribution staff and be doing this anymore. What do you think about Film Hub? Film Hub is this website, Are you familiar Film Hub? I think so. Well, give me a little reminder on it. So Film Hub is this website where you can upload your film and they will sell it to all these different platforms. So they were literally like, Go to all these different platforms for you and they will pass or accept it and then they'll deliver it. As long as you get the file up there and all the things they need. It's like this online distributor, they take like 20%. Yeah, there's been a few of those over the years and I think even Film Hub is like a new iteration of one, of the other ones maybe, but it's self-distribution still, you know, because they're not offering any real market. No, no. It's only, it's only what your film. Yeah exactly. So you're still self distributing at that point. So it's a good way to get it on those platforms. But then you serve to market it because like unless you catch lightning in a bottle, you're organic traffic isn't going to amount to anything. And if you're spending 50 grand, 200 grand, you're not going to make your money back. Yeah, I have two arms. I have two films on there. They were picked up by like probably 20, 25 platforms even to be that kind of thing. But I can make more in one live screening with a Q&A than I can with, you know, all these individual little digital sales, because you're just getting such a small percentage of that. Yeah, there is two small films that I was distributing and the producers just like, just keep them up on your Amazon channel. So he literally it's funny, he emailed me last night because I told him, I said, listen, I can't give you quarterly reports on this like 20 bucks or whatever. It doesn't it's not worth my time. So I'll keep them up. But like, I'm just going to report and pay you at the end of the year. And he's like, That's fine. So he hit me up the other day or last night. So I got to dig in and. Find out what you owned for the year, see. What I own over the year, and I'll probably be like 80 bucks. Yeah. Now maybe 100, maybe two. I don't know. I think that's a big part of the idea of Alex Ferrari and his indie film, Hustle podcast. He wrote a book called Film True Preneur, which is all about how we can't just think of ourselves as artists. We have to be just as much business people, you know, and you have to think about how am I really going to make money from this? Just don't. And out there and thinking the world's going to come find your film. Like that's not how that business works, you know? Yeah. And that's and that goes back to why I say like sure, there's been a $50,000 movie or $200,000 drama that has broken through, and you've heard about that one, but you haven't heard about the thousands of them that never saw a dime back because that can happen. You can put a movie out and never see a dime back because there's expenses in front of you getting plus the distribution fee and things like that. So it's like absolute Glee. It's like if you want to potentially make money, if you want to do a show piece, knock yourself out, do whatever you want, and you can throw away 50 grand or 200 grand. Great. I'm glad you have the ability to do that. I don't. So if I'm taking somebody's 50 grand, I'm going to make a horror film. My company investor who got more during the pandemic financed a couple of these small movies that we had developed because basically my model is really to pre-sell them, distributors opposed to it. So I do pre-sell these things mostly, but my company investor was bored and he's like, I want to finance one of these movies. So we financed one of these little horror movies that we developed, went well, sold it did really well. I think that one we made for like 30 grand and got 65 for North America and a $20,000 international advance. So it was a pretty good thing. Now that 65 we did that deal like a year and a half ago and that movie still doesn't have a release date, you know, and I even told the investor I was like, that 65 is probably all we're ever going to see from this particular company, you know, And they were okay with that. So but explained it. So I was like, we can go this company. It's less money, but we'll see money on the back end or this company, it's more money, but it was enough money where it made sense. That upfront money and and then look as good as that back there money but that back there money is back, you know, and it's. Maybe. What is it, the chicken in the hand versus two in the nest or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But and the point I'm getting at is that like so during that the, the writer director started talking to him while they were making this movie because the investor went to set because he lives on the East Coast and these guys are on the East coast. He's like, I want to be involved because again, wanted to get out of the house. So he went and he was super excited about it. And the writer director started talking about this this time travel thing that he said, like, all right, I want to do it. So they did the time travel thing and I said, Guys, I can't make any promises of how the time travel thing will do. Same cast, you know, same whatever great movie that a really good job and it didn't make its money back on the sale Maybe it will on the back end it just came out fairly recently. But the sci fi, even though that's a genre that has a following, you need names for that. So it's like where monster movies especially like that's your star that's on your poster, you know, and you got to be careful with the ghost in the House movies because there's a million of them. So it's based on execution. You got to do a really good job and make it really scary, even with no names. And at 50 grand. So anything you want to wrap up with since we're about out of time? Yeah, we're about out of time. So if you take a minute, I asked everyone about work life balance, how you manage your work life balance and your relationships trying to chase this crazy dream we out here chasing. It's tough. It's definitely tough because, like, when you do these movies and things like that, you immersed yourself for months. And a movie is like the lead producer is like, that's going to be a solid two years for me. On that film. From inception to finishing to selling it and getting it out there and dealing with the investors and financiers and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, when I went to Kentucky to do becoming it, Jessica was nice enough to do a small role and that was the first time out of Girlfriend. It was the first time that I went to be on location on the set, and that almost ended our relationship because she didn't understand that I'm working 14, 16 hours a day and I had like my weekends around like Tuesday, you know, what I read. So it was just stuff to like call every day or be in communication and, and things like that. So it's I wouldn't say that I'm perfect at figuring out that balance just yet, You know, like, I've never been married. I don't have any kids that I'm aware. And so it's tough. I, I mean, definitely thinking about yourself because, I mean, there's definitely times I've gotten caught up and I'm just like, I would say, again, I'll use this becoming movie as an example. It's just like there was maybe a lot of signs in the financing side, or it's like, I shouldn't have dove into it, you know what I mean? But I was just like, All right, I like this script. I like the actor, like, I'm going to make it happen. You know, It's like and it's like, maybe I shouldn't have, you know, I'm like, maybe I shouldn't have thought about my personal life a little bit more. But yeah, trying to find that balance and especially like, say, going out to L.A. or somewhere like or New York even to pursue this, It was a great experience for me that I wouldn't trade in by any means, but it's like trying to figure out how you're going to pay your bills and pursue your dream. And finding that balance is super important because there's so many people that move out there and they end up getting taken over by the job, paying their bills, and then they're also maybe partying a little bit too. And the whole L.A. Lifestyle, which it's tempting, you know, it's like you get all these beautiful, fancy people, you know, it's like, sure you want to go hang out with them, but it's you definitely got to find that. You got to figure out that work balance for sure. I mean, there was a point there was two points. Right now, jobs I was working from 11 at night to 7 a.m. in the morning because I couldn't wait tables because I'm producer. You know, as an actor, that's fine. Definitely do it. But again, still find your balance of waiting tables and actually pursuing your dream, you know, and spending your time because don't just go out there and be like, I'm good looking. And I acted in my high school theater program. You need to get in classes, good classes and ones that will cost you money and you need to work at this. But where I was working at 11 at night to seven in the morning because like I couldn't serve a drink to somebody. I'm asking for $5 million for a movie, you know, They're like, How are you a producer? Like, I had movies in Sundance and I had to go take these jobs like I worked at a rehab, like basically like watching people with addictions, you know, from 11 at night to seven in the morning. And I worked as like a night auditor at a hotel. You know, it's like so I'd get 4 hours asleep when I got home, get up, work on my producing stuff, take an hour nap before I went in at night. And that's that's how I survived. So it's like work life imbalance. Yeah. Yeah. And there was no girlfriends during those times. Yeah man that, that that must that were on you. Well use out there in the party scene with the coke you know. Yeah I have done more coke. More energy, more girlfriends, all that good stuff. I know you wouldn't remember any of them, but yeah. There'd be pictures floating around, you know? Well, we want to thank Sir Cole Payne for coming in today and learning a lot of the things I know. I learned a lot. I learned a lot. So really, for Cole, thank you for. Yeah, thanks for having me. I really. Appreciate. Thanks for driving in. Oh, absolutely. Appreciate it very. Much. And he told you his email is out there. He's going to leave it to you to go find it, though. Yeah, put in the work. But if you find him, great. Due to know, say thank you again and we wrap this up. Anything that you need the people to know about that you got coming up that you want people to know about? Yeah, I just did a movie in Kentucky where I was a hands on producer called Bang Bang. Really proud of that. That even goes back to film. Maybe I'm most proud of. It's not finished yet. We're going to submit to Can here pretty soon it'll be unfinished 20 Summit. So that'll be a long shot. But at some point next year, maybe it'll come out. So bang, bang, check that out. Timberlake Nelson's the lead on that film. Oh, thank you. And I think that's it At the. One big ask we have is that guys would go on to Apple Podcasts, Spotify and rate review and subscribe to this podcast. It really helps us get the word out about the work we're doing and really continue to interview filmmakers and bring you guys content that provides education, knowledge and the stuff you need to really make a living in this industry. We also wanted to put it out there that we're looking for sponsors who help us make this podcast more of a regular thing. If the content we're producing may be of interest to your organization, your business, whatever you're doing, reach out in motion Storytellers at gmail.com and let us know how we might be able to partner and provide value to the work that you're doing. And if you have any ideas on what you'd like to hear, please email us at In Motion Storytellers at gmail.com. And the music you heard today was created by Grammy Award winning producer Courtney J.R. Peebles of So Hot Productions. If you need a composer for your next film, head Them up. And so Hop productions Tor.com The Emotion Storytellers podcast is brought to you by Speak Up Productions, the In Motion Team, and is supported by the Missouri Film Office. And this has been another episode of the In Motion Storytellers podcast, brought to you by Shack City Studios. Learn more about Shack City Studios and Shack City Studios. Scott Our mission to help succeed from anywhere till next time.